‘Shrinking’ stars Jason Segel and Jessica Williams on Jimmy vs. Derek, Harrison Ford, more

Jason Segel and Jessica Williams are ‘comedic dance scene’ partners

Interview by Gerrad Hall
Illustration by Nadzeya Makeyeva

The doctors will see you now.

It’s the morning after a night shoot for season 3 of Shrinking, the Apple TV+ series from Bill Lawrence, Brett Goldstein, and Jason Segel. Segel and his costar Jessica Williams — who play therapists Jimmy and Gaby on the comedy — are raving about the group scene they just filmed.

“It was a really fun night. It’s always fun when they have the whole cast together,” Segel tells Entertainment Weekly‘s The Awardist podcast. “We finally get back outside. A lot of our exteriors were taken down in the Eaton fire in Altadena, so we got to finally go back to our locations, and that was a real blessing too.”

Season 2 of the show — which also stars Harrison Ford as a fellow therapist, Michael Urie as Jimmy’s best friend and lawyer, Christa Miller and Ted McGinley as Jimmy’s neighbors, and Luke Tennie as a patient who Jimmy takes under his wing for some unconventional treatment — continues the progress Jimmy made in season 1, where we found him deep in the throes of grief following his wife’s death, eventually striking up a no-strings-attached (and at first secret) relationship with Gaby, who just so happens to be his late wife’s best friend. But in season 2, Gaby calls things off, starts dating Derek (Damon Wayans Jr.), and moves into a nice new home, causing friction with her mom and sister.

Elsewhere, Harrison Ford’s Dr. Paul is dealing with his Parkinson’s diagnosis, part of which includes a new relationship with Julie (Wendie Malick), the doctor treating him.

Operating in the background of the action, Jimmy’s teenage daughter Alice (Lukita Maxwell) has met and struck up a friendly rapport with Louis (Goldstein), the drunk driver who killed her mom in a car accident. Jimmy, still torn from his loss, doesn’t approve and forbids Alice from talking to him …but she does anyway (part of her attempt to work through her own grief).

In addition to Emmy nominations for Segel and Williams for the show’s first season, Segel has earned two Golden Globe nominations, plus two SAG nominations (for the ensemble and an individual one for Ford). Segel and Williams chat with The Awardist podcast about the shift they felt between filming seasons 1 and 2 of the show, Gaby’s relationship with Jimmy versus Derek, Ford’s tear-inducing scene and Jimmy’s face-to-face with Louis in the finale, what to expect in season 3 (more Wayans, as well as a scene that Lawrence told Williams “might be the dirtiest thing that’s ever been put on television”), and more.

THE AWARDIST: I know there are obvious things like being more comfortable with each other and being more comfortable with characters as you get into a second season, but outside of those things, did you guys feel a different energy, a different something filming season 2?

JESSICA WILLIAMS: Yeah. A lot of time happened in between season 1 and season 2, if I remember. There was a really nice sweet spot where we made something before people had really seen [season 2], where it felt like a really intimate show. And I felt like people would come up and be like, “Oh, I really enjoy it.” And so it was nice to get that feedback. But then something happened after season 2, where I feel like so many people saw it and then it just became something else, where it was completely different. I feel like we really understood what the show was in between the first two seasons, and we spent the first season laying the groundwork. I think our characters are in a slightly darker place in the first season, and it just felt different.

JASON SEGEL: In season 1 of a show, you’re sort of obligated to service the A-story, to lock in what the show is about. And so season 1 was very much about digging Jimmy out of this hole, and all the friends helping, and the lives surrounding him. But by the end of season 1, we had sort of done that and we had gotten him to zero, and now everyone was on the same level. And the thing that became very clear to everybody during season 1 is that every one of these actors deserve their own show in a way, to start giving everybody fully realized interior lives and fully realized arcs, and making sure that we were highlighting everybody’s strengths and letting them have the green light to slaughter. I think that’s what you feel in season 2, is everyone’s getting to take it for a spin.

At the end of season 2, Brett Goldstein’s character Louis, is essentially in the same place that Jimmy was at the beginning of season 1. I was not expecting it to be Jimmy who showed up at the train station in the finale, to stop Louis from what he was about to do. What was it like filming that with Brett?

SEGEL: The ethos, I think, of the whole show is that we’re all really similar, that we are all reflections of each other and going through all of the same stuff in our own different ways. And so to me, the theme of that ending is that Jimmy saving Louis is him saving himself. We’re reflections of each other, and we’re in slightly different places on the journey. I have found in life that holding onto resentments is the thing that is keeping you in the hole. And so this final release that Jimmy has with Louis is a release for himself. Acting it with Brett was a dream. We all love Brett. He’s around in bits and bobs because he’s so busy and does a million different things. He’s a constant presence for the writers, but not as much for [the actors].

The “Thanksgiving” episode — Harrison Ford, my God, when Paul starts sharing what he is grateful for, what it was like to witness him in that moment?

SEGEL: Here was my experience of doing it. To me, the highest definition of art is going through something personal on screen and letting an audience witness it. And this storyline is, without being one-to-one, so meta around Harrison and Paul. And Harrison standing in front of you, looking you in the eye as he did, he was so present looking each one of us in the eye and saying, “I don’t know…” — I might cry talking about it — “I don’t know how much longer I get to do this job, but doing it with all of you has been an honor.” These are things that we, Jessica and I, are going to get to have in our minds for the rest of our lives.

WILLIAMS: I never thought on the timeline of Harrison Ford’s amazing career that I would be in a room for this little piece of it where he is doing this really amazing work. And I feel like that day he was really ready, and we were all just sitting there listening to him. That was the only thing we had to do. It was the best acting I’ve ever seen in person. And it was just an honor. And sometimes a lot of times he does stuff and I’ll think, oh, that’s Harrison f—ing Ford. That’s actually what I’ll think. And that was one of those days where he just took a room full of people and made all of our jobs really easy, where we just had to witness him.

Those were real tears.

SEGEL: Oh my God, if-

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

SEGEL: We were crying disproportionate to the occasion…

WILLIAMS: Yeah, it was kind of a weeping sitch. And I remember after filming that, I needed a moment separate from everything where I could just sit with the weight of the moment and the work that he did. And I remember, it was funny, I was sitting somewhere on the lot and after that and found me, and he just sat next to me. And we just sat together in silence. Sometimes you can tell when someone’s been a girl dad before. I don’t know if that makes sense, but you can tell sometimes in older men, especially. I don’t know, they just understand. And so he and I, we just sat next to each other. He just saw that it was really an emotional day for everyone, but for some reason, he just came and found me somewhere on the lot and then just sat with me for like 15 minutes. It was really, really nice.

SEGEL: I want to say too — and I don’t want to speak for Harrison, but maybe Jessica has this sense too — but Harrison really, really cares. And I understand there are differences in weight and gravity of a giant blockbuster versus a TV show or this and that, but I don’t know how often in Harrison’s world he’s had those speeches or he’s had these really intimate moments that Shrinking allows all of us, where some days you’re called to come in there and rip your guts out… I think that for any actor, you want to do that stuff. And you also want to know if you can do that stuff. And you see other actors you admire do that stuff, and think, God, I wonder what I would do with a speech like that? And I think that’s still true for Harrison; I think when Harrison’s giving a speech like that, there’s a little part of him that’s like, “I never got to show this and I think I can do it.”

WILLIAMS: I feel so lucky to be able to do this show because it’s one of those shows, especially with my part that I play, where Gaby can really do comedy and then Gaby can, yeah, she’s a really soulful person, like a rooted, really grounded person, but also really funny and a heart-on-her-sleeve person. And so it is amazing with our amazing writers, and crew, and directors, and actors, that as an actor I get to play this part where I get to really stretch as Jessica Williams, as an actress, to the best of my abilities. That’s always what I want to do. And this is a job where I feel like we all get to do that as actors, and it’s a gift. It’s really special.

SEGEL: Jessica’s speech this year early on [in filming season 3], I won’t give too much away, but where she came in and just slaughtered this speech she had to give earlier this year. And again, while it was happening, I was thinking like, boy, TV has really changed. This is not How I Met Your Mother that I came up doing, when you talk about a half-hour comedy. And it’s also not a drama; it is legitimately a comedy. We have big, giant laughs and big comedy set pieces. But also, you’re going to give Jessica, and me, Harrison, and everybody, Michael Urie, the opportunity to show the breadth of what they can do. It’s like a beautiful gift as an actor. I don’t walk away from Shrinking thinking, well, this hiatus, I’ll do some stuff that makes me feel fulfilled.

Amidst all of that little bit of drama and the tears, Jessica, the season ended for Gaby on two high notes: Derek showing up at Thanksgiving, and also bringing her mom. I can only imagine what Gaby and Derek did Thanksgiving night, but I digress — that’s a question for a different time. But I feel like a therapist asking this question: How did it make you feel that she got this kind of happy ending there?

WILLIAMS: Oh man, that’s a great question. They definitely had intercourse. [Laughs] You know what’s funny is, it’s not my show and it’s not my job to judge as an actor, honestly. I really try and approach it like, okay, on this episode, this is happening, on this episode, this is happening. And I try and take it one day at a time, and I try and build the scene piece by piece… I was really happy for her. I love working with Damon. I love working with really quick, really smart, silly, giving actors. He’s someone who, if you do bits — because he came up doing comedy so much — he’ll be like, “Remember this bit you did? Can you maybe do it again, like maybe do it for this scene?”. There’s no limits to his jokes, and he’s not precious with them, and so it makes him really, really fun to play with. And he’s not afraid you’re going to step on a joke. He’s easy to communicate with, and so he’s a dream to work with. Everyone on our show, it’s like we’re in a band and we’re all so different, and we all play music together differently. And then when we’re in a group game, we’re all playing together, we play differently. And so it’s really fun to be able to enjoy every actor for who they are every time I step in a scene. It sounds cheesy, but it’s true.

Jason, I hope this isn’t a sensitive subject, but we have to talk Jimmy versus Derek. Does it upset you that Gaby has more chemistry with Derek than Jimmy?

SEGEL: [Laughs] Look, Jimmy’s a mess. I get it. Who knows what would’ve happened with Jimmy and Gaby if Jimmy was in a better place. Timing’s always the third person in the room. But I think that those two on screen together are one of the funniest pairings I’ve ever seen, Derek and Gaby. They’re like comedic soulmates, and so I’m thrilled to see it. I will say, when Jess and I do acting together, it’s like for me-

WILLIAMS: There’s no comparison. There’s just no comparison.

SEGEL: It’s really a special thing.

WILLIAMS: I also feel like it doesn’t look like anything to anyone, but I know it. I feel like we could do any scene as any actors in any project. You know what I mean?

SEGEL: What’s really exciting about acting with Jess is that we do these scenes like where we wake up after sleeping together in season 1, and it’s a high-energy comedic scene, and she and I are both like, we’re dancing. That is a dance scene — it’s a comedic dance scene. We did another scene this season that was the opposite of that, that was — as Jess put it last night — a very still, emotional, looking at one another scene. We actually had one in season 2 as well, when I show up at your house. That’s one of the really exciting things about our partnership for me, is that every time we walk into one of those scenes, I know that I have to throw plans out the window and just be really, really present. My job is to front-load in my prep, and then pay attention to what Jessica is doing. And I know she feels the same. And this thing happens that just feels like… It’s what I love most about doing this job. I walk away from one of those scenes and I think, oh, we caught it, we captured it.

WILLIAMS: We always catch it. Hi, Bubba. [She greets her two-year-old dog, which has just entered the room.] My son just walked in to see what Mommy’s doing… I love you. You have to go. I’m sorry. Love you. But I feel like we can meet each other wherever we are.

Jason, you mentioned that Damon is back, so we know he’s still in the picture. We want to see Jimmy happy. Will Cobie Smulders’ character be any part of that happiness?

SEGEL: Well, as you know, I can’t give away such things. But I will say, each season we have a word that is our true north for the theme of the season. Season 1 was “grief,” season 2 was “forgiveness,” and season 3 — I acknowledge that this is two words — is “moving forward.”

WILLIAMS: As a fan, I want to see more of that. And I want to do things with her.

SEGEL: Cobie and I have known each other since I was 25 and she was 22. We did a decade of work together that not only us growing up as performers, but also these were formative life years. Cobie got married and had kids; I had ups and downs in my life and all sorts of twisty turns, and we were there for each other. I do think in terms of the alchemy of what comes across on screen in any dynamic, the magic trick of that when I watched it was like, “They seem like they’ve known each other forever,” and we have, but character-wise, it’s only supposed to have been a moment.

One of the things that I think when I think about the storylines with Jessica, the storylines with Cobie for Jimmy, is there’s a very easy trope to fall into when you’re writing a tall goofy man, is that they are afraid of girls, that the way they’re going to… Like Ross from Friends or some of my early rom-coms. It’s like they’re scared of girls, you’re fumbling around them. And my gentle nudge around Jimmy, which I like and it makes it exciting for me, is that he’s not afraid of women. He’s not bad with women. As a matter of fact, he had an amazing wife who he met in his early twenties and has had a fully realized relationship with all of the stuff, including the death of a spouse. So I didn’t want those scenes to be the typical fumbling date, someone who doesn’t know how to talk to a woman. He’s had the hardest talks. He’s had the, “What do we do?” like, “Oh no, we’re pregnant,” talk. Instead, I wanted it to be a guy who actually has some underlying shame. So his thing is, this woman deserves better than me. So that’s what I think Jimmy takes into the scenes. If she saw the real me, she would know she deserves better.

You mentioned there being giant laughs — when buying the Mini Cooper, there was the lotion joke by Ted McGinley. There are some great one-liners: Harrison saying, “Babies are assholes,” was so hysterical to me’ Jessica, when you’re in the car with Harrison and you say, “Suck my ass.” Are all of these things scripted? Are they alternate takes? Are they happening in the moment?

WILLIAMS: It’s a mix. The writers are amazing, and the more that we do the show, the more they write to us.

SEGEL: I will say, there are strokes that are undeniably Jessica. There were some last night when she was giving a speech where I’m like, you actually can’t write that because if you wrote it, maybe that’s the dirtiest thing you’ve ever heard, or how would someone even deliver that? But they’re all delivered with such elegance. 

WILLIAMS: [Laughs] I was saying some pretty gross stuff last night that makes me feel really good. It was so gross. It was so lewd that Bill came out and said, “This might be the most lewd thing we’ve ever had on the show.” And-

SEGEL: [Laughs] He said it might be the dirtiest thing that’s ever been put on television!

Jason, you had been on How I Met Your Mother for a few years playing Marshall before you wrote and starred in Forgetting Sarah Marshall. Was Sarah’s last name an intentional nod to How I Met Your Mother?

SEGEL: No, it wasn’t. It just had a good ring to it. I’m musically inclined in terms of the way I think about line delivery, the way I think about all this stuff. I use the name Peter a lot. Marshall seems to pop up a lot. I don’t know why.

WILLIAMS: Is Peter a Peter Sellers thing?

SEGEL: Peter is because the play I got discovered in in high school was The Zoo Story by Edward Albee, so there’s two characters, Peter and Jerry, and so I use those two names. Jimmy is actually my variation on Jerry, for this show. Jerry, or Jimmy, is the more live-wire one — and Peter is the more every-man guy when I’m writing.

This interview has been edited for clarity and length.

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It only took about 22 years, but Kristen Bell is finally poised to earn her first Emmy nomination thanks to Netflix’s breakout romcom Nobody Wants This, and if the SAG Awards and Golden Globes are any indication (and they are), Adam Brody will join his costar in the first-timers club this year…and will Harrison Ford also join that club for his work on Shrinking? Here are the lead and supporting comedic performances that EW critic Kristen Baldwin thinks will be announced come nominations day, July 15.

LEAD ACTRESS IN A COMEDY
Kristen Bell, Nobody Wants This (Netflix)
Quinta Brunson, Abbott Elementary (ABC)
Ayo Edebiri, The Bear (Hulu)
Bridget Everett, Somebody Somewhere (HBO)
Kathryn Hahn, Agatha All Along (Disney+)
Jean Smart, Hacks (Max)

SUPPORTING ACTRESS IN A COMEDY
Liza Colón-Zayas, The Bear
Hannah Einbinder, Hacks
Janelle James, Abbott Elementary
Sheryl Lee Ralph, Abbott Elementary
Meryl Streep, OMITB
Jessica Williams, Shrinking

LEAD ACTOR IN A COMEDY
Adam Brody, Nobody Wants This
Steve Martin, OMITB
Seth Rogen, The Studio (Apple TV+)
Jason Segel, Shrinking (Apple TV+)
Martin Short, OMITB
Jeremy Allen White, The Bear

SUPPORTING ACTOR IN A COMEDY
Ike Barinholtz, The Studio
Paul W. Downs, Hacks
Harrison Ford, Shrinking
Ebon Moss-Bachrach, The Bear
Michael Urie, Shrinking
Tyler James Williams, Abbott Elementary

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